Prop 8 and Christian Traditions

I doubt that you would spend your life in the institution, spend a few years outside of it, and then after re-evaluation go back to it with the exact same stubborn mentality.

Either you are lying to try and look better, or you had your "teenage angst" period by rebelling against the church (instead of going out partying?), or you have decided that a closed-minded view just makes life easier.

(Note: I do believe it is possible to follow the path you described, but I am skeptical you could follow that path and not at least learn how to argue FOR your case.)

And calling me a liar defends your point any better?

Why does it matter if they call it "marriage" or "civil union" if it confers the same benefits? Marriage and the social benefits it gives are regulated by the state, not the church. Churches aren't forced to marry people and you can get married in a secular court.

Here's why churches *actually* oppose gay marriage: other churches that allow it and will perform the ceremony will steal members from them, emptying their collection plate. So rather than be tolerant of people over whom they have no jurisdiction, they'd rather be bigoted and stuff their own pockets with (tax free) cash. Can you think of a *more* morally bankrupt business plan?

Obamarahn wrote:

And calling me a liar defends your point any better?

You're cherry-picking one comment I made and taking it out of context (I am not calling you a liar, I am saying you could be a liar under one scenario). Note that's not the one that I would have suggested is actually true. I'd put my money on "teenage rebellion against church."

Peanutbutter wrote:

Obamarahn wrote:

And calling me a liar defends your point any better?

You're cherry-picking one comment I made and taking it out of context (I am not calling you a liar, I am saying you could be a liar under one scenario). Note that's not the one that I would have suggested is actually true. I'd put my money on "teenage rebellion against church."

Well you'd be dead wrong. I truly felt that God had left me and turned away. See, not everyone hates God as much as you do, and people truly can believe in God.

Obamarahn wrote:

I grew up in a baptist home and went to church my whole life, but when I got older, I started turning towards atheism, and was for 3-4 years, but eventually came back to the church.

Obamarahn wrote:

I truly felt that God had left me and turned away. See, not everyone hates God as much as you do, and people truly can believe in God.

Error, does not compute.

Galt wrote:

Obamarahn wrote:

I grew up in a baptist home and went to church my whole life, but when I got older, I started turning towards atheism, and was for 3-4 years, but eventually came back to the church.

Obamarahn wrote:

I truly felt that God had left me and turned away. See, not everyone hates God as much as you do, and people truly can believe in God.

Error, does not compute.

How? I turned to Atheism when things got bad, then came back. It's exactly what I said.

You're going off-topic. I already said that I think people CAN and DO go back to the church after a time of discontent, but I also said that such a process cannot logically occur without the dissenter returning with a newfound sense of logical thought. Let me explain.

1. Most deeply religious people are so by indoctrination. They grew up that way, their parents, friends, role models are all that way, that's the only way they know how to be, and they will impart that same tradition into their own offspring.
   
2. Some people, including yourself by your own admission, break from their religious pasts due to not finding the answers they seek in Scripture and counseling from their mentors. These people often are under great duress and tend to identify with Job, but cannot believe any one set of trials could be so great from a loving God.
   
3. Of that group of dissenters, some eventually pass through the hardship and discover a newfound sense of faith in God. I would not question that faith, but I would challenge that each one of them has seriously evaluated his or her faith and determined it to be stronger than lingering doubt.
   
4. Ergo, by definition, those who walk this path and come out religiously strong will find that it is a lot easier to defend the curiosities of religious dogma because those individuals have asked the very same questions as the doubters.

You cannot honestly tell me that you "left the church" and then "came back" and now are just as stubborn as you were back then. I can believe that you made such a journey. I cannot believe that you can do so without being able to at least argue against a clear inconsistency.

Peanutbutter wrote:

You're going off-topic. I already said that I think people CAN and DO go back to the church after a time of discontent, but I also said that such a process cannot logically occur without the dissenter returning with a newfound sense of logical thought. Let me explain.

1. Most deeply religious people are so by indoctrination. They grew up that way, their parents, friends, role models are all that way, that's the only way they know how to be, and they will impart that same tradition into their own offspring.
   
2. Some people, including yourself by your own admission, break from their religious pasts due to not finding the answers they seek in Scripture and counseling from their mentors. These people often are under great duress and tend to identify with Job, but cannot believe any one set of trials could be so great from a loving God.
   
3. Of that group of dissenters, some eventually pass through the hardship and discover a newfound sense of faith in God. I would not question that faith, but I would challenge that each one of them has seriously evaluated his or her faith and determined it to be stronger than lingering doubt.
   
4. Ergo, by definition, those who walk this path and come out religiously strong will find that it is a lot easier to defend the curiosities of religious dogma because those individuals have asked the very same questions as the doubters.

You cannot honestly tell me that you "left the church" and then "came back" and now are just as stubborn as you were back then. I can believe that you made such a journey. I cannot believe that you can do so without being able to at least argue against a clear inconsistency.

I'm a lot less stubborn now than I used to be

What's really incredible here is that in defense of your journey you have revealed to us that you are "less stubborn" now than you were before. Seriously? What were you before, a goat with a rock for a brain?

No, I'm absolutely going to call this one as angst. My encounters with you show a serious sense of self-loathing that you have worked so hard to shed. Of course, you have failed, as you so recently admitted with the razor-thin veil of claiming that your whole application to the guild was a sham. Now, being called out, you have informed us that you have some kind of personal struggle story that has solidified your churchy base.

It's a crackpot explanation to a pathetic story. My guess is you're STILL the embodiment of teenage angst. You have doubts about your faith (maybe even past?) but seeing so many liberal view points on this forum has stirred something primal within you, strong enough to temporarily overcome those doubts and stand up for the Right. When pressed, you show your true colors by acting the part of the stubborn conservative, convinced he is right in the face of reason. When cornered, you lash back like a caged animal with commentary like I mentioned in the above paragraph. Potentially insulted, and you do not hesitate to fire back a nasty zinger.

Sure, I'm probably off in parts of your dossier, but I would handily wager the presidential race that my assessment is mostly correct.

No?

Obamarahn wrote:

No?

I can only smirk in content at this reply.

How? No part of that was even REMOTELY close. Are you even talking to me?

It's pretty clear you've lost whatever you invested into this debate. Time for you to find a new thread to troll, IMO.

Peanutbutter wrote:

It's pretty clear you've lost whatever you invested into this debate. Time for you to find a new thread to troll, IMO.

Because you made some pyscobullshit statement that's COMPLETELY wrong?

Obamarahn wrote:

Peanutbutter wrote:

It's pretty clear you've lost whatever you invested into this debate. Time for you to find a new thread to troll, IMO.

Because you mad some pyscobullshit statement that's COMPLETELY wrong?

Your anger is so apparent in the fact that you misspelled, and then immediately corrected the spelling of, the word "made."

Fingers trembling on the keyboard in anger?

Peanutbutter wrote:

Obamarahn wrote:

Peanutbutter wrote:

It's pretty clear you've lost whatever you invested into this debate. Time for you to find a new thread to troll, IMO.

Because you mad some pyscobullshit statement that's COMPLETELY wrong?

Your anger is so apparent in the fact that you misspelled, and then immediately corrected the spelling of, the word "made."

Fingers trembling on the keyboard in anger?

If you read anything I write, it's usually has a grammatical error, I type faster than I read

Obamarahn wrote:

Galt wrote:

Obamarahn wrote:

I grew up in a baptist home and went to church my whole life, but when I got older, I started turning towards atheism, and was for 3-4 years, but eventually came back to the church.

Obamarahn wrote:

I truly felt that God had left me and turned away. See, not everyone hates God as much as you do, and people truly can believe in God.

Error, does not compute.

How? I turned to Atheism when things got bad, then came back. It's exactly what I said.

I don't get what turning to atheism means. I grew up baptist as well and when my opinion of the whole matter changed, its not something I could just come back from.

Galt wrote:

Obamarahn wrote:

Galt wrote:

Obamarahn wrote:

I grew up in a baptist home and went to church my whole life, but when I got older, I started turning towards atheism, and was for 3-4 years, but eventually came back to the church.

Obamarahn wrote:

I truly felt that God had left me and turned away. See, not everyone hates God as much as you do, and people truly can believe in God.

Error, does not compute.

How? I turned to Atheism when things got bad, then came back. It's exactly what I said.

I don't get what turning to atheism means. I grew up baptist as well and when my opinion of the whole matter changed, its not something I could just come back from.

It's a long story that I'd prefer not to tell on a public forum

And PB, as far as being on a forum with liberal ideas doing something to me, I used to hang out on the POAC forums, which makes DD forums look like the RNC

this reminds me of the last presidential debate

/applaud pb

Well, as I am a Christian I don't necessarily think gay marriage is terrible but I don't think it is right. A couple of bible quotes that I would like to toss out there is God says "Thou shalt not judge others." So if it is a sin to judge why do we judge and harass gays, however God also says "Thou shalt not watch two husbands in bed." So going off of what God said he semi contradicts himself? Just going to show that I am on the fence about gay marriage. I have a gay cousin and am rather close to her and it is totally fine, however marriage is also said by God to be a Man and Wife, not partner and partner.

I think it's fine for people to hold a moral objection to just about anything. After all, I'd never suggest someone not follow the dictates of their own conscience or not worship as they see fit. The limit is when that starts to affect the choices and freedoms of others. Since our Constitution in the US pretty much prohibits respecting anything on a religious basis, that includes issues like this.

Doomus wrote:

I have a gay cousin and am rather close to her and it is totally fine

So... is she hot?

grak wrote:

I think it's fine for people to hold a moral objection to just about anything. After all, I'd never suggest someone not follow the dictates of their own conscience or not worship as they see fit. The limit is when that starts to affect the choices and freedoms of others. Since our Constitution in the US pretty much prohibits respecting anything on a religious basis, that includes issues like this.

This.

grak wrote:

I think it's fine for people to hold a moral objection to just about anything. After all, I'd never suggest someone not follow the dictates of their own conscience or not worship as they see fit. The limit is when that starts to affect the choices and freedoms of others. Since our Constitution in the US pretty much prohibits respecting anything on a religious basis, that includes issues like this.

That is why this time we are voting to change the constitution itself. Vote yes on 8.