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 Prop 8 and Christian Traditions

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Xeos
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:37 pm

And just so we are clear, I do feel strongly about this subject. But I also do understand that the Golden Rule is still the Golden Rule. Those who have the Gold make the Rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:40 pm

Obamarahn wrote:
- Z - wrote:
Yes, and DOMA is actually unconstitutional.

So...Gays hate freedom?

Again, Bees purple foot-pie? Was there any relevance there?



Xeos wrote:
Wouldn't it only be unconstitutional if the constitution was interpreted by the supreme court justices that way? Which they haven't done.

The Supreme Court hasn't ruled on it period. I'm pretty sure if one of the defining principles of the Constitution was, "it is ok to eat green apples," and then a law was passed that stipulated, "eating green apples is a sin, you can only eat red apples," that law is unconstitutional. If they want to make an official amendment, fine. As it stands, it is in direct conflict with AT MINIMUM the Equal Protection Clause.


Dimidréas wrote:
I just do not see how the two are comparable, let alone enough to be a sufficient reason to sidestep the question posed.

Ok, paradigm shift. I want you to stop thinking about why someone would vote for or against a younger age of consent. Ignore the reasons. What gives them the right to do so? What construct, social or individual, private or public can or should pass judgment? Why?

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:46 pm

- Z - wrote:
Ok, paradigm shift. I want you to stop thinking about why someone would vote for or against a younger age of consent. Ignore the reasons. What gives them the right to do so? What construct, social or individual, private or public can or should pass judgment? Why?

The right would lie in with the reason :
To protect those who are not mature enough to understand / value / defend their own rights.

And this is detracting from what my original question was, a fact on what makes gay marriage is right or wrong. Voting, legality and majorities / minorities were brought up instead of an answer of fact and by others.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:48 pm

Who determines the qualifications for capability/maturity? On what grounds are they allowed to to make these decisions for someone else?

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:54 pm

- Z - wrote:
Who determines the qualifications for capability/maturity? On what grounds are they allowed to to make these decisions for someone else?

And here you have another reason as to how these two topics greatly differ ^,~
I will not even begin to pretend I know what is right or wrong with something as complicated as age of consent, much the same as I would be pretty torn concerning abortion discussion.
Like I said, lots of implications with that one.
Gay marriage is a little more cut and dry. Two people love each other and want to get married.
I can accept that various religions would not honor the union as they are free to have their views and morals. Aside from that it is one of the base rights they have as human beings.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:57 pm

/facepalm


Dimi, I am not asking you what you think. I am asking you who is qualified to think, and by what grounds they are qualified on.





Edit: I'll continue this later, I have to run for now...

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:59 pm

- Z - wrote:
/facepalm


Dimi, I am not asking you what you think. I am asking you who is qualified to think, and by what grounds they are qualified on.





Edit: I'll continue this later, I have to run for now...

Same yah bastard =p
Enjoying this convo though so I'll be sure to write a reply tomorrow =DDD

<3 <3 le guild

*edit yes <3 <3 even you xeos even though you are an intolerant bastard I hardly know =ppp
/tease
/hug
Appologies again for being pushy
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:26 pm

Quote :
Amendment 1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Unless your proposed ban has a justification other than a religious one, you don't have a leg to stand on. Give me one (1) reason that is *not* religious in nature why homosexual couples should not be able to register for marriage benefits?

Contrary to what you seem to believe, the US is not a mob state. We have a constitution to prevent precisely these type of abuses. Do you know *why* the Establishment Clause was added? In a stupefyingly ironic twist of fate, it was BAPTISTS from Danbury Connecticut who ASKED Jefferson to include a clause establishing separation of church and state to protect themselves from another sect of Christians, namely the Congregationalists of Danbury Connecticut who held many government positions in the city and were trying to drive them out.

I find it infinitely amusing that you are ready to flush away the very rights that your fellow Christians fought for to protect *themselves* from oppressors in the name of oppressing someone else.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:36 pm

- Z - wrote:
/facepalm


Dimi, I am not asking you what you think. I am asking you who is qualified to think, and by what grounds they are qualified on.





Edit: I'll continue this later, I have to run for now...

You are confusing the issue of criminality with legality. Gays can go get married today, they won't get throw into jail, but nobody will recognize the "legality" of their union. You could go bang a hot 5th grader as well, expect to face criminal charges. That's the fundamental difference in the argument and why it has no bearing in this discussion. It's also why the "we" in all of Xeos' posts try to confuse the issue with criminal acts instead of alluding to rights based violations like I don't know....women's right to vote. I'm fairly sure the same "we" would cling to that constitution blanket if some majority decided to outlaw their religion. Xeos also fails to realize the slippery slope of arguements he's laid out about right and wrong and "that's why we vote" and how easily it leads to voting on his rights, but I guess it's convenient for "we" now.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:42 pm

Not as long as I stick with the Majority! =D

And in most states they will not issue gay marriage licensees in the first place Malaese, California is the odd ball out. It is criminal in most states to issue one.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:49 pm

Xeos wrote:
Not as long as I stick with the Majority! =D

And in most states they will not issue gay marriage licensees in the first place Malaese, California is the odd ball out. It is criminal in most states to issue one.

Wooooaaaahhhhh marriage is licensed based now? I thought it was a "holy union between a man and a woman, recognized under the eyes of God".....so all the marriages in the bible don't mean anything since they weren't licensed? See how dumb that is?
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:52 pm

You have to follow both, laws of the land as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:44 pm

Indeed. One of the laws of the land says you can't stomp on people's rights to free association. But you're not too keen on that one? So what criteria do you use to decide which laws to follow and which not to?
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:16 pm

grak wrote:
Indeed. One of the laws of the land says you can't stomp on people's rights to free association. But you're not too keen on that one? So what criteria do you use to decide which laws to follow and which not to?

Which ever ones his religious leaders tell him to, but we already established that didn't we.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:24 am

Well to be fair, I think that it is perfectly fair to base our opinions off of our religion seeing as the US is a CHRISTIAN based country. So in that sense wouldn't it only make sense to base our opinions off of the bible..... God talks poorly of gays so even though not EVERYONE is religious or Christian based we are still a Christian country... sooooo
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:25 am

Doomus wrote:
Well to be fair, I think that it is perfectly fair to base our opinions off of our religion seeing as the US is a CHRISTIAN based country. So in that sense wouldn't it only make sense to base our opinions off of the bible..... God talks poorly of gays so even though not EVERYONE is religious or Christian based we are still a Christian country... sooooo

Oh God, you just opened a whole other can of shit
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:47 am

Shelarahn wrote:
Oh God, you just opened a whole other can of shit
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:40 am

- Z - wrote:
/facepalm


Dimi, I am not asking you what you think. I am asking you who is qualified to think, and by what grounds they are qualified on.





Edit: I'll continue this later, I have to run for now...

Well I would think that it is a global issue and everyone as a right to debate it because everyone is responsible for protecting those who cannot protect themselves and, again, that is the grounds that qualifies them to make a decision for someone who can't.
I still don't see how comparing how one would decide age of consent, voting, the majority or legality of something to wether or not one can provide a fact on gay marriage being right or wrong makes any sense...
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:41 am

Doomus wrote:
Well to be fair, I think that it is perfectly fair to base our opinions off of our religion seeing as the US is a CHRISTIAN based country. So in that sense wouldn't it only make sense to base our opinions off of the bible..... God talks poorly of gays so even though not EVERYONE is religious or Christian based we are still a Christian country... sooooo

O.o >?
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:33 am

Malaese wrote:
- Z - wrote:
/facepalm


Dimi, I am not asking you what you think. I am asking you who is qualified to think, and by what grounds they are qualified on.





Edit: I'll continue this later, I have to run for now...

You are confusing the issue of criminality with legality. Gays can go get married today, they won't get throw into jail, but nobody will recognize the "legality" of their union. You could go bang a hot 5th grader as well, expect to face criminal charges. That's the fundamental difference in the argument and why it has no bearing in this discussion. It's also why the "we" in all of Xeos' posts try to confuse the issue with criminal acts instead of alluding to rights based violations like I don't know....women's right to vote. I'm fairly sure the same "we" would cling to that constitution blanket if some majority decided to outlaw their religion. Xeos also fails to realize the slippery slope of arguements he's laid out about right and wrong and "that's why we vote" and how easily it leads to voting on his rights, but I guess it's convenient for "we" now.

This
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:46 am

One of the issues I see Xeos, is that you are garnering your argument solely from your religious background. Personally in terms of legality I think that religion should be thrown out. Your God does not equate to my God who may not sympathize with Dimi's God, who might hate Z's God. "My religion tells me that Gay marriage isn't right" is a terrible argument, and without answering Dimi's or Malease's(sp) questions regarding your motives, we can only assume that this is your only argument.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:14 am

Honed wrote:
One of the issues I see Xeos, is that you are garnering your argument solely from your religious background. Personally in terms of legality I think that religion should be thrown out. Your God does not equate to my God who may not sympathize with Dimi's God, who might hate Z's God. "My religion tells me that Gay marriage isn't right" is a terrible argument, and without answering Dimi's or Malease's(sp) questions regarding your motives, we can only assume that this is your only argument.

I don't have a god, thanks =p
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:58 am

Neither do I, as you already know. Thanks for ruining it jerkface.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:05 am

Honed wrote:
Neither do I, as you already know. Thanks for ruining it jerkface.

I aim to please >^,~<

/lick
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:39 am

Shelarahn wrote:
Doomus wrote:
Well to be fair, I think that it is perfectly fair to base our opinions off of our religion seeing as the US is a CHRISTIAN based country. So in that sense wouldn't it only make sense to base our opinions off of the bible..... God talks poorly of gays so even though not EVERYONE is religious or Christian based we are still a Christian country... sooooo

Oh God, you just opened a whole other can of shit

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