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 Prop 8 and Christian Traditions

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Doomus

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:48 pm

One good example I have heard is this, there are actually pedophiles saying that they feel that it is perfectly ok to look and do sexual activities with little kids, and they say that it is actually a disease or a mental disease if you will like being skitzofrenic. So they say that they are NATURALLY A PEDOPHILE, HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU SAY THAT YOU WERE BORN A PEDOPHILE?........ i mean WTF?
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Dimidréas

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:49 pm

Doomus wrote:
I am in an agreement with Xeos there really is no facts here... you can't prove that it is right and ok for them to marry any more than we can prove that it is wrong however, based on our beliefs and social views we feel it is wrong and you don't. Hence why we vote on the matter.

If you cannot prove it is wrong, how is it not right?
Fact is gay marriage doesn't impose on another humans rights.
If there is nothing wrong with gay marriage, how is it no right?
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:50 pm

Xeos wrote:
There is no answer to your question. Like I said before. Right and wrong, in this context, are always an opinion and a matter of perspective by the very definition of the word.

For example; Age of Consent. Is it wrong for someone over the age of 21 to have sex with a 14 year old? In some states, yes absolutely it is wrong, in others it is right. It depends on where you live and your cultures perspective on it. Opinions made into laws by voting.

PS. For all of you who like your girls real young, Idaho and Hawaii are legal at 14.

Age of consent has nothing to do with this topic so please feel free to stick to my question.
Just because you cannot provide an answer to the question that is fact and not biased, bigoted opinion does not mean that there are no facts on wether gay marriage is right / wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:53 pm

There have been many recent studies in the field of cognitive psychology that show that Pedophilia and Sociopathy are latent genetic agents that have maturation periods that start at a very young age.

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:54 pm

Dimidréas wrote:
Xeos wrote:
There is no answer to your question. Like I said before. Right and wrong, in this context, are always an opinion and a matter of perspective by the very definition of the word.

For example; Age of Consent. Is it wrong for someone over the age of 21 to have sex with a 14 year old? In some states, yes absolutely it is wrong, in others it is right. It depends on where you live and your cultures perspective on it. Opinions made into laws by voting.

PS. For all of you who like your girls real young, Idaho and Hawaii are legal at 14.

Age of consent has nothing to do with this topic so please feel free to stick to my question.
Just because you cannot provide an answer to the question that is fact and not biased, bigoted opinion does not mean that there are no facts on wether gay marriage is right / wrong.

Sure it does, it is another topic that has no definitive right or wrong answer or facts, but is determined by each community using popular vote.


Last edited by Xeos on Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:54 pm

Xeos wrote:
Like I said before. Right and wrong, in this context, are always an opinion and a matter of perspective by the very definition of the word.

No, its not an opinion. To strip the rights of another citizen due to your religious views is WRONG.
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Malaese

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:55 pm

Xeos wrote:
Malaese wrote:
It's the brainwashing. When caught in an un-winnable argument, refer to scripted answers.

I was typing.

I would call it searching for more obfuscating examples which have no real relation to the matter at hand to attempt and derail the argument. Let's see what else can we equate an "unpopular" civil union too....cannibalism .....check.....underage sex....check.....beastiality? Quick go turn to the pre-typed argument and get us a 150 word summary of how they are the same.
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Dimidréas

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:58 pm

Xeos wrote:
Dimidréas wrote:
Xeos wrote:
There is no answer to your question. Like I said before. Right and wrong, in this context, are always an opinion and a matter of perspective by the very definition of the word.

For example; Age of Consent. Is it wrong for someone over the age of 21 to have sex with a 14 year old? In some states, yes absolutely it is wrong, in others it is right. It depends on where you live and your cultures perspective on it. Opinions made into laws by voting.

PS. For all of you who like your girls real young, Idaho and Hawaii are legal at 14.

Age of consent has nothing to do with this topic so please feel free to stick to my question.
Just because you cannot provide an answer to the question that is fact and not biased, bigoted opinion does not mean that there are no facts on wether gay marriage is right / wrong.

Sure it does, it is another topic that has no definitive right or wrong answer or facts, but is determined by each community using popular vote.

Completely different topic but feel free to continue sidestepping the question. To be honest I had little doubt that you would do such, as bigotry is little more than ignorance.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:00 pm

Galt wrote:
Xeos wrote:
Like I said before. Right and wrong, in this context, are always an opinion and a matter of perspective by the very definition of the word.

No, its not an opinion. To strip the rights of another citizen due to your religious views is WRONG.

According to who? I disagree with you and we have come to a a brick wall, how do we decide who is correct? We vote. Lucky for me you don't get a vote in California.

Living in Texas I doubt there will be any kind of gay marriage there either.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:02 pm

I've been trying to avoid taking sides here, but Xeos, it's actually not legal. As in, the Constitution of the United States says it is wrong.

That being said though, there are a number of "not legal" bills and motions being voted on throughout the country.




P.S.- Interesting question, and just to get your take on it, Dimi, how IS determining age of consent different from homosexuality.

P.P.S.- Keep it civil in here.






Edit: GODDAMNIT MOTHER@!#$ERS MISSED MY "1337" POST. HATE YOU ALL.

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:04 pm

Malaese wrote:
Xeos wrote:
Malaese wrote:
It's the brainwashing. When caught in an un-winnable argument, refer to scripted answers.

I was typing.

I would call it searching for more obfuscating examples which have no real relation to the matter at hand to attempt and derail the argument. Let's see what else can we equate an "unpopular" civil union too....cannibalism .....check.....underage sex....check.....beastiality? Quick go turn to the pre-typed argument and get us a 150 word summary of how they are the same.

Pre-typed argument? I am flying by the seat of my pants here trying to get my view across.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:08 pm

What is not legal? There has been a lot of things discussed. In most states same-sex marriage is illegal and not recognized.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:11 pm

- Z - wrote:
I've been trying to avoid taking sides here, but Xeos, it's actually not legal. As in, the Constitution of the United States says it is wrong.

That being said though, there are a number of "not legal" bills and motions being voted on throughout the country.




P.S.- Interesting question, and just to get your take on it, Dimi, how IS determining age of consent different from homosexuality.

P.P.S.- Keep it civil in here.






Edit: GODDAMNIT MOTHER@!#$ERS MISSED MY "1337" POST. HATE YOU ALL.

How does it differ? You mean besides the fact that they are two entirely different things? O.o
One deals with what is viewed as the proper age of consent between two people and the other is a question of wether it is wrong or right for two people of the same sex to be unified by marriage. Bit of a difference there. One is a persons base right as a human being to love another human being, regardless of sex and to share in the same rights afforded to others. The other is a asking to determine the age of consent between people.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. If someone has the opinion that gay marriage is wrong because little voices tell them it is or because men in pink underwear is unsexy they have every right to that opinion. If someone wants to believe that another man is of lesser worth based on the color of their skin they have every right to have that as an opinion. How we go about acting on those opinions can be right or wrong. When it impedes on another persons rights as a human being, it is wrong and thus I see disallowing gay people to marry as a huge violation of base rights every human has as a living, sentient entity. That is my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:11 pm

Xeos wrote:
Galt wrote:
No, its not an opinion. To strip the rights of another citizen due to your religious views is WRONG.

According to who?


Yeah... outlawing same-sex marriage is structurally illegal, meaning it goes against the tenets of the constitution. If you read the current rulings on privacy, segregation, and marriage, for a state to outlaw homosexual marriage is, well, illegal.

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:13 pm

Except many states have already ruled that it is illegal and un-recognized which have not been overturned by the feds. Also there is talk of making it a federal law as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:14 pm

I think you're missing my point here Dimi, bear with me for a minute.


In the state of Hawaii the legal age of consent is 14. That means a 40 year old man can have sexual intercourse with a 14 year old girl and if she says she wasn't raped, it is legal. Is there anything wrong with that?


Now, what if the legal age of consent was 12?

8?

6?


What determines when it becomes right, or wrong. Remember that the girl is a willing participant in this exchange.

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Dimidréas

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:17 pm

- Z - wrote:
I think you're missing my point here Dimi, bear with me for a minute.


In the state of Hawaii the legal age of consent is 14. That means a 40 year old man can have sexual intercourse with a 14 year old girl and if she says she wasn't raped, it is legal. Is there anything wrong with that?


Now, what if the legal age of consent was 12?

8?

6?


What determines when it becomes right, or wrong. Remember that the girl is a willing participant in this exchange.

I understand the point that you are trying to make but they are not one and the same, they are entirely different. Again, it is an attempt to compare a question with very different implications and variables to an entirely different matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:18 pm

Xeos wrote:
Except many states have already ruled that it is illegal and un-recognized which have not been overturned by the feds. Also there is talk of making it a federal law as well.

Honestly that is simply because organized religion has so much money and power that they can boss the government around a bit. The same holds true for Pharmaceutical companies, the tobacco industry, and even farmers. They all engage in structurally illegal activities and push for bills to be passed that when you look at them, are not legal as defined by the constitution.

Ah, lobbies and interest groups. The only real constituency in America. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:19 pm

Dimidréas wrote:
I understand the point that you are trying to make but they are not one and the same, they are entirely different. Again, it is an attempt to compare a question with very different implications and variables to an entirely different matter.

But how?



And just so you know, I am not against gay marriage. Reading these forums have reminded me that many people, not just the "religious right" cannot articulate formal debate.

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:21 pm

Yeah cause DOMA was passed by congress in '96 which basically says that the feds don't recognize same-sex marriage and that each state recognizes it based upon their own state laws.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:27 pm

Yes, and DOMA is actually unconstitutional.

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:31 pm

- Z - wrote:
Yes, and DOMA is actually unconstitutional.

So...Gays hate freedom?
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:32 pm

Wouldn't it only be unconstitutional if the constitution was interpreted by the supreme court justices that way? Which they haven't done.


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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:32 pm

- Z - wrote:
Dimidréas wrote:
I understand the point that you are trying to make but they are not one and the same, they are entirely different. Again, it is an attempt to compare a question with very different implications and variables to an entirely different matter.

But how?



And just so you know, I am not against gay marriage. Reading these forums have reminded me that many people, not just the "religious right" cannot articulate formal debate.

I wouldn't care if you had either opinion >^,~<

Age of consent is different. You are trying to determine it for what purpose?
To protect the younger who would consent? For what reasons?
To prevent exploitation of the younger consentee who may not be mature enough to protect and value their own rights? How do you determine maturity by age alone? General concesus? Are their any factual ages that express a particular level of maturity? Is everyone the same in that regard?

Allowing legal marriage between homosexuals. What is the purpose of allowing this?
To give equal rights between two members of the same sex who express a mutual love for one another in the same manner as a couple of opposing sexs would express. How does this impede another humans rights?

I just do not see how the two are comparable, let alone enough to be a sufficient reason to sidestep the question posed.

I will leave it at Xeos's opinion that there are no proper facts, only opinions and say that I disagree with that remark but respect it as his own thoughts. I shouldn't push as I have since its his opinion to have, I just do not view intolerance in a positive light and as such am likely intolerant of it (irony...).

I shall now hop off to go get me some homemade turkey soup (spent 3 hours making that shit yesterday, FUCK YEAH).

Regards all,


~dimi
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:32 pm

Edit: Holy crap, lots of posts happened, brb.

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