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 Prop 8 and Christian Traditions

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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:27 am

Damacus wrote:
or obviously understand "what they are" by any means

Explain

And no Galt, they can have their little unions or whatever, but I'm not for calling it Marriage.
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:29 am

Why, how does it affect you what they call it? You do see that when you call it "their little unions or whatever" you're being very discriminatory and condescending? That does nothing to back up your argument as being fair or correct.
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Kamma

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:30 am

Obamarahn wrote:
Damacus wrote:
Kamma wrote:
Just going along your argument here shel. If the new testament is literal, than in John, Jesus literally says to not take him literally. At least, I was able to write an extended paper during college arguing that and the professor loved it - and keep in mind she was all about the fire and the brimstone. The assumption of the paper was that John should be taken literally, the result was that Jesus doesn't want you to take it literally.

See what happens if you create any sort of gross generalization?

I suggest you give up on any sort of rule of thumb and simply use a combination of historical context and juxtaposing translation (and original) as the basis of any interpretation. The bible is a great collection of books, but if I learned anything in college it is that anyone can take anything and make it say anything. Grains of salt and overwhelming evidence are needed for any argument in the humanities as compared to science. IE it takes one legitimate observation to refute a scientific theory. It takes a body of legitimate observation to refute a theory in the humanities.

This is why Sodom et al is not a good basis for the good/badness of homosexuality. It is in complete contrast with much of the rest of the bible, and if we use your rule of thumb, the old testament should not be taken literally.

tl;dr: christianity is a fuckin' joke.

SEE WHAT I DID THERE!?

Ok see that's another one of those thing's that's just too far

Well said shel. When people jump in and say shit like that, they are showing head-in-the-sand-ism. Clearly Christianity isn't a joke otherwise it wouldn't effect the world so profoundly. There is nothing wrong with "Christianity". But what is our working definition. If we mean it in an institutional sense. Then set of institutions claiming to be christian is so diverse that it's impossible to make any really broad statements about Christianity unless you are stating obvious structural things.

I would venture to say that fringe Christian groups sometimes do more harm than good. But note the words "fringe" and "sometimes." It's equivalent to the statement: fringe Muslim groups sometimes do more harm than good.

Similarly, sometimes good people do more harm than good in society. But brings us back to the whole point of religion... So anyway, would you agree/disagree with the point I was making about interpretation shel?
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:32 am

Yeah I would agree, I've always been a big supporting of not taking the Bible literally, but instead taking the messages it gives and taking them and making them relevent to 21st century life.
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:36 am

I wonder how many things we could cure in the lab if we were able to cherry pick our results in medical testing and research. Who cares that in 60% of the trials this new medicine killed people, I'll just look at the other 40% that worked and go from there.
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Kamma

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:41 am

Obamarahn wrote:
Yeah I would agree, I've always been a big supporting of not taking the Bible literally, but instead taking the messages it gives and taking them and making them relevent to 21st century life.

Well said.
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Damacus

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:46 am

well, for one, that you say being gay is a "choice."

after you hit puberty and all that shit, when did you decide to start being attracted to girls or that you liked a different kind of porno from your gay best friend? Have you ever talked to him about his "choice" to "become" gay? And lastly, have you ever thought "why would someone choose to be gay when there's such a negative view on it from society's overall perspective?"

I mean, "choosing" to be gay would have to be one of the stupidest things someone could do considering the amount of hate-mongering, stereotyping, and stigma they'll have to deal with. And let's not mention what it does to their families, friends, and loved ones. I mean, "choosing" to be gay is along the same lines of asking to be discriminated against, picked on, made fun of, ostracized, etc. whatever the fuck you want to call it.

Explain to me why the majority of an entire population of people would "choose" to live a life like that, if you would.

p.s. also I'm not dumb enough to believe that not every gay person on the planet is ostracized by their family, friends, or society as a whole, just thought I'd point that out.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:48 am

The concept that gay marriage is condemned by God is basically taken from two points according to the Roman Catholic interpretation of the Old Testament. (The Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament does not make these connections, so there's already one major contradiction.)
  • God burned down a city with bad people, some of whom were into gay sex. Of course, the city had a lot of other bad stuff going on which is mentioned more extensively in Scripture, but people like to really get on the one line about homosexuality.
    • You've already said to not take the text literally, so I'm not really sure what the "interpretation" is supposed to be here.
    • The Bible says the city has only one righteous person (Lot) and that God destroyed it in fire and brimstone.
    • What actually happened? Do you think it honestly true that every inhabitant (including children) of the city were wicked?
    • Of course not, you probably think it had many wicked people, a reasonable interpretation.

  • The 6th Commandment, condemning adultery, defines adultery as any sexual act outside of that between a married man and woman.
    • By extension, gay sex (and marriage) is wicked or sinful.
    • Doesn't that definition extend to pre-marital sex? By God's own Commandment (or rather, the interpretation of it), pre-marital sex is just as sinful as gay sex. Yet pre-marital sex happens all the time and does not preclude any church from accepting or marrying members that practice it.
    • It seems like a huge inconsistency to say that gay marriage is a terrible sin that cannot be recognized in God's eyes when clearly he has no problem with marriage that follows pre-marital sex (or a second marriage that follows adultery, for example).
    • I'm not even going to go into the whole concept of breaking your covenant with God by divorcing, but those individuals who get divorced can get re-married by the church, as well.

In essence, I see a very small amount of work on God's part to list gay marriage as a terrible sin, and certainly no more sinful than arrogance against the poor and needy (one of Sodom's main sins) or adultery/pre-marital sex (by His Commandment). Every one of those sinners can get married, or re-married, except the gay ones.


Last edited by Peanutbutter on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Secondary

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:49 am

When I grow up, I want to be that kid who gets picked on and beat up every day!
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Damacus

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:50 am

Galt wrote:
I wonder how many things we could cure in the lab if we were able to cherry pick our results in medical testing and research. Who cares that in 60% of the trials this new medicine killed people, I'll just look at the other 40% that worked and go from there.

I laughed lol

and I was just fucking around with my "interpretation" of Kamma's post, for the record, because I agree with what he's saying about the whole interpretation bit.
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Kamma

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:52 am

PB is for win.
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Damacus

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:53 am

Peanutbutter wrote:
The concept that gay marriage is condemned by God is basically taken from two points according to the Roman Catholic interpretation of the Old Testament. (The Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament does not make these connections, so there's already one major contradiction.)
  • God burned down a city with bad people, some of whom were into gay sex. Of course, the city had a lot of other bad stuff going on which is mentioned more extensively in Scripture, but people like to really get on the one line about homosexuality.
    • You've already said to not take the text literally, so I'm not really sure what the "interpretation" is supposed to be here.
    • The Bible says the city has only one righteous person (Lot) and that God destroyed it in fire and brimstone.
    • What actually happened? Do you think it honestly true that every inhabitant (including children) of the city were wicked?
    • Of course not, you probably think it had many wicked people, a reasonable interpretation.

  • The 6th Commandment, condemning adultery, defines adultery as any sexual act outside of that between a married man and woman.
    • By extension, gay sex (and marriage) is wicked or sinful.
    • Doesn't that definition extend to pre-marital sex? By God's own Commandment (or rather, the interpretation of it), pre-marital sex is just as sinful as gay sex. Yet pre-marital sex happens all the time and does not preclude any church from accepting or marrying members that practice it.
    • It seems like a huge inconsistency to say that gay marriage is a terrible sin that cannot be recognized in God's eyes when clearly he has no problem with marriage that follows pre-marital sex (or a second marriage that follows adultery, for example).
    • I'm not even going to go into the whole concept of breaking your covenant with God by divorcing, but those individuals who get divorced can get re-married by the church, as well.

In essence, I see a very small amount of work on God's part to list gay marriage as a terrible sin, and certainly no more sinful than arrogance against the poor and needy (one of Sodom's main sins) or adultery/pre-marital sex (by His Commandment). Every one of those sinners can get married, or re-married, except the gay ones.

after I read this I started hearing "You're Beautiful" by James Blunt playing in my head.
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Secondary

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:53 am

Quote :
PB for president
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Damacus

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:55 am

Secondary wrote:
Quote :
PB for president of the Cookies for Kids Club and Bible Awareness Anonymous Association
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:58 am

Damacus wrote:
Secondary wrote:
Quote :
PB for president of the Awareness Biblical Anonymous Club Association of Bible Brothers.
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:23 am

Peanutbutter wrote:
The concept that gay marriage is condemned by God is basically taken from two points according to the Roman Catholic interpretation of the Old Testament. (The Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament does not make these connections, so there's already one major contradiction.)
  • God burned down a city with bad people, some of whom were into gay sex. Of course, the city had a lot of other bad stuff going on which is mentioned more extensively in Scripture, but people like to really get on the one line about homosexuality.
    • You've already said to not take the text literally, so I'm not really sure what the "interpretation" is supposed to be here.
    • The Bible says the city has only one righteous person (Lot) and that God destroyed it in fire and brimstone.
    • What actually happened? Do you think it honestly true that every inhabitant (including children) of the city were wicked?
    • Of course not, you probably think it had many wicked people, a reasonable interpretation.

  • The 6th Commandment, condemning adultery, defines adultery as any sexual act outside of that between a married man and woman.
    • By extension, gay sex (and marriage) is wicked or sinful.
    • Doesn't that definition extend to pre-marital sex? By God's own Commandment (or rather, the interpretation of it), pre-marital sex is just as sinful as gay sex. Yet pre-marital sex happens all the time and does not preclude any church from accepting or marrying members that practice it.
    • It seems like a huge inconsistency to say that gay marriage is a terrible sin that cannot be recognized in God's eyes when clearly he has no problem with marriage that follows pre-marital sex (or a second marriage that follows adultery, for example).
    • I'm not even going to go into the whole concept of breaking your covenant with God by divorcing, but those individuals who get divorced can get re-married by the church, as well.

In essence, I see a very small amount of work on God's part to list gay marriage as a terrible sin, and certainly no more sinful than arrogance against the poor and needy (one of Sodom's main sins) or adultery/pre-marital sex (by His Commandment). Every one of those sinners can get married, or re-married, except the gay ones.

Well I think it's already been firmly established that the current church is a complete joke, so anything they do is out of the will of God anyways.
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:27 am

So you think it is wrong for them to try to take away gay marriage then?
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:29 am

Galt wrote:
So you think it is wrong for them to try to take away gay marriage then?

No I still agree with that
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:32 am

Just curious...

What actual harm to you do you think will result if gay marriage is allowed?
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:36 am

grak wrote:
Just curious...

What actual harm to you do you think will result if gay marriage is allowed?

Nothing probably, I'm just too hard headed to change my mind
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:19 am

Obamarahn wrote:
grak wrote:
Just curious...

What actual harm to you do you think will result if gay marriage is allowed?

Nothing probably, I'm just too hard headed to change my mind

Sad
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:20 am

At least he's not kidding himself about being thick skulled.
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:21 am

So the current church is a joke and full of inconsistencies with itself and other interpreters of the same book (Old Testament) such as Episcopalians and Jews, yet you still follow its prescribed dogma because you are too stubborn to change your views?

We can interpret that one of two ways:
1) You have some kind of abiding feeling that your feelings on this matter are correct, regardless of how the little facts may be picked apart. You would basically say that I am cherry picking favorable results (which I am not) and that even if there is a trend toward inconsistency, you have a firm belief that overall the act is still condemnable.

2) You have no real idea what you believe but know that whatever it is you do believe cannot possibly involve acts you have always heard to be sinful.

Either way, you admit a serious lack of judgment or ability to evaluate yourself for possibly being wrong. There is nothing wrong with the Christian faith. There is something wrong with blindly following it once you are old enough to evaluate it. If after a careful analysis you are still convinced of its legitimacy, I applaud you for making a leap of faith I would never make (accepting a conclusion to be true without conclusive evidence of a key premise). I would not criticize someone who spent time making that decision. I'd gladly debate them on any issue, but I would not slander their beliefs.

Being blindly dogmatic has some use in simply driving numbers because it's easy to take a bunch of people and convince them you are correct and then your one vote becomes thousands. But it has no real use when it comes to trying to rationalize Proposition 8 as somehow the "right thing to do."
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:22 am

Sorry Secondary, we will just have to get a Civil Union

And I'm going to go with option number 1, Dr. PB

I grew up in a baptist home and went to church my whole life, but when I got older, I started turning towards atheism, and was for 3-4 years, but eventually came back to the church. So I would say it's more of a choice that some sort of indoctrination
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PostSubject: Re: Prop 8 and Christian Traditions   Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:29 am

Air tight like a colander, I like it.
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