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 [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin

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Comotosis

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:46 pm

Secondary wrote:
The more recent spec you put up is very good, but I recommend 2/2 Improved Judgment. 2 seconds off of your Judgment cooldown means more threat, and if you are raiding with us, you will want as much threat as you can muster.
(drop 2 points from guardians favor for 2/2 imp judgment)
I thought you should only ever put 1 point in it so it lines up with GCD for a rotation, or do prot pallys have a lot of down-time enabling them to use it every cooldown with 2/2 speced?

From an MT perspective, 150 HP is the best chest enchant. At Sunwell level (ie you are tanking a Sunwell boss) 15 defense has its place, but that's really it. Admittedly, this does not always apply to a paladin.
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Secondary

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:54 pm

1/2 is generally to make the timing a little more simple (i think). Most pallies use a macro to judge/recast a seal in one mash.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:56 pm

Comotosis wrote:
Secondary wrote:
The more recent spec you put up is very good, but I recommend 2/2 Improved Judgment. 2 seconds off of your Judgment cooldown means more threat, and if you are raiding with us, you will want as much threat as you can muster.
(drop 2 points from guardians favor for 2/2 imp judgment)
I thought you should only ever put 1 point in it so it lines up with GCD for a rotation, or do prot pallys have a lot of down-time enabling them to use it every cooldown with 2/2 speced?

From an MT perspective, 150 HP is the best chest enchant. At Sunwell level (ie you are tanking a Sunwell boss) 15 defense has its place, but that's really it. Admittedly, this does not always apply to a paladin.

I spec 2/2, but I generally have a lot of down-time as well. Holy Shield, Consecrate, Judge/reseal, and wait for HS/Cons to come up again.

In my opinion, 150 HP is a good and solid enchant but I prefer to use 15 defense. As paladins are more concerned about uncrushability, 15 defense provides about 1% to uncrushability, which is invaluable in a lot of cases. I also have a longer spiel about gems and itemization points and how 15 defense is good in that respect, but it's best saved for another time.

Edit: I judge/reseal manually.
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:46 pm

I do my judge/seal manually as well, but both buttons are right next to each other that it pretty much is instant. usually what collides more for GCD for me is holy shield and consecrate. Holy shield has priority, but thats what I usually run into.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:44 pm

I'd like to see you on Sunday in a raid. Please try to make it.

Since we currently have two prot paladin apps and no need for more than one, I'm curious to know what your ret set looks like, and if you're familiar with ret theorycraft.
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:18 pm

my ret gear is pretty decent, ive got some TK/ZA/t4/brutal glads gear mixed together. I am using the sunwell spear, and I just did a TK run and i was 4th on dmg in the DPS meter.

As for theorycraft, I have played ret for quite some time, and I understand how the tree works. I have also been practicing seal twisting, which in case you or somebody else who reads this doesnt know what that is it works like this:

Art of Seal Twisting:
Only blood elf paladins can do it as of now.

Anyways, this combines using rank 1 seal of command and using seal of blood.

Seal of Command is a proc per minute seal, and it is decided if it will proc BEFORE the normal attack actually lands.

Seal of Blood however procs every hit AFTER the weapon connects.

So if you switch seals right before your weapon connects, you can proc both SoC and SoB, ultimately allowing you to use both DPS seals at once.


I would prefer to be a prot paladin, as I enjoy playing a prot paladin for the PVE aspect of the game and a ret paladin for the PVP aspect.

Although I must admit I do enjoy running into a battleground as prot and kicking ass. Its a good game if I have 0 deaths, 2 killing blows, 45 honor kills, and like 70K dmg Smile Its a bad game if I die twice.

If you are on WoW right now by chance, whisper me and Ill equip my ret gear, as right now im holy since we needed a healer in TK.


I will log out in my dps gear, and post a page of what my talents look like as ret. However its all offset gear, so its got some enchants and gem socketing, but I cared more about my tanking stuff. Ret gear got my left over gems and such.
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:57 pm

Peanutbutter wrote:
I'd like to see you on Sunday in a raid. Please try to make it.

Since we currently have two prot paladin apps and no need for more than one, I'm curious to know what your ret set looks like, and if you're familiar with ret theorycraft.


What spec on sunday? ret or prot?

my ret talent tree
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=sLZVhZxfcthcuiIot

my dps gear
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Gorgonnash&n=Rishana
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Secondary

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:02 am

Don't respec till the raid, just in case. Your spec is perfect EXCEPT you need to drop 1 point in Vindication for the 5th point in Divine strength. 2/3 Vindication 5/5 Divine Strength.



Edit: Your gear is better than excepted. Pretty good stuff for ret, but your gems could use a little work. Red sockets should be 8/10 STR. Yellow (If you want the socket bonus) should be 5str/5crit. Blue (if and only if you want the socket bonus) 5str + stam


Last edited by Secondary on Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:03 am

Secondary wrote:
Don't respec till the raid, just in case. Your spec is perfect EXCEPT you need to drop 1 point in Vindication for the 5th point in Divine strength. 2/3 Vindication 5/5 Divine Strength.


was thinking of doing that, as it seems more and more mobs are becoming immune to it.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:44 am

I understand that you want to be prot but you need to keep in mind that

1) a lot of people in this guild like Petrus and the pressure is extremely high to take him, and most people know he's very good with his theory (he taught you a few things)

2) we need a ret paladin as well as a prot paladin

So I'm basically trying to say, "I'm not that sure you'll get a spot as prot, but we're still interested in you coming." Most likely this Sunday I'll want you prot.
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:13 am

Sounds good, Ill be on sunday then.
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:49 am

A quick change of plans.

My mother's surgery got changed to next week friday, August the 8th.

I'm free today if you would like for me to do a test run of sorts.

Otherwise Sunday is still good for me.

What are we running on Sunday, so I can read up on the boss fights?
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:10 am

Yes, come today if you can.

I don't announce raids until raid time because I've found people tend to mysteriously not show up when something is scheduled they don't need/want Shocked (also it usually matters who logs on).

However, if you want to be prepared, BT is still fully up, and we may also pay a visit to old world content. I would probably go review SSC/TK, too.
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:20 am

SSC/TK im pretty familiar with, except for leothras the blind and cashj herself. And Kaelthas in TK.

I'll spend some time at work reading up on the BT bosses.

As for old world, ill research that when I get home. Give me something to do during my long flight paths : /

on a side note: does BT still require attune?
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:04 am

No, it does not.

If it wasn't made clear, reviewing the Kalecgos fight would not be a bad idea either.

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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:22 am

alright, I was not told to review the kalecgos fight but I have no problem studying the fight.

Been reading the guides on Bosskillers and watching the nihilum videos at work.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:37 am

Rishana wrote:
As for the 15 defense enchant, if im not mistaken, 25 defense equals 1% to parry, block, dodge, and chance to be missed.
The enchant gives 15 defense rating, of which you actually need 60 points to increase parry, dodge, etc. by 1%.

60 defense rating = 25 defense.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:42 am

hmmmm, then the 150 HP enchant is far the best of the three possible enchants.

I remember thinking when I saw the numbers, something doesn't seem right, by i forgot that the enchant was rating and not actual defense points.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:49 am

FYI I wouldn't trust Bosskillers. I'd use raidguru.net
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Rishana

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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:55 am

Really?

I was using them for a more written down explanation of events, and then watching nihilum videos of the boss fights in action.

ill go hit up the raidguru then.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:47 pm

Indeed the conversion from rating to actual defense is there, but I personally tend to go with 15 defense because of itemization and the fact that 150 health doesn't scale with anything (neither does the defense, but it provides all types of mitigation, whereas the 150 health does not).

I also look at it this way: With 150 health, you're getting essentially the same amount of health as you'd get from 15 stamina (Solid Empyrean Sapphire) before talents. With 15 defense, you're getting more defense than you're getting from a Thick Lionseye (10 defense). So in one case you're getting about the same effectiveness as adding another epic gem to your gear (except it doesn't scale), with the defense enchant you're actually getting a bit more than you'd get from adding an epic gem to your gear. The 15 defense also gives about .75% avoidance, which doesn't hurt.

That said, 150 health is far from an incorrect or wrong choice. It works just fine in all situations and is a very good enchant. I simply personally prefer 15 defense. It's the same reason that some people match socket bonuses and others don't - there's no right or wrong there, just differences in opinion.

Edit: Here's the Maintankadin thread on the topic from back when the defense enchant was introduced: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?t=7696


Last edited by Petrus on Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:56 pm

Petrus wrote:



That said, 150 health is far from an incorrect or wrong choice. It works just fine in all situations and is a very good enchant. I simply personally prefer 15 defense. It's the same reason that some people match socket bonuses and others don't - there's no right or wrong there, just differences in opinion.


So basically its just personal flavor, and not more a this is better than that kind of thing.

Although it is situational as well.

15 defense rating IS better for say your aoe tanking gear set, as your getting hit a lot more, for smaller amounts of damage, where your mitigation effects are constantly occuring.

150 HP is better for your boss tanking gear, where the boss is going to be hitting slower but much harder, and the extra mitigation just wont seem to help that much.

EDIT: near the end of the thread it seems like 15 defense is the better enchant.

But i have to wonder, when your in sunwell, and mobs gain 5% to hit and everyone loses 20% dodge, is the defense still better? It seems like the argument picks up again from what I have read and heard. Some tanks still stand by the hp and some to the defense.


Last edited by Rishana on Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:02 pm

It is avoidance as well, but both 15 defense and 150 health both work well in pretty much all situations. The little bit of mitigation/avoidance is about 1%, which is enough to give some options on other pieces of gear. I could probably drop my 15 defense enchant right now and go for 150 health and I'd still be uncrushable. However, if I get jungle stompers and have that 15 defense enchant, I can choose to use the righteousness libram instead of the holy shield libram, which is a choice I wouldn't have otherwise. If not, I don't quite have enough block/dodge/parry/miss and I have to continue using the holy shield libram.

I prefer 15 defense, but any way you look at it both enchants are good and will serve you well.

Also, raidguru does indeed appear to be better than bosskillers.

Edit: The defense can indeed still be better because of the need for Sunwell Uncrushability later on for Twins (though I haven't read much about it much), but early on its effectiveness is diminished a bit by Sunwell Radiance and 150 HP could be a superior enchant for Kalec/Brut/Felmyst. Either way you aren't really going to be wrong with either one and defense being "better" isn't really an entirely accurate statement. In my experience I tend to think of it more as a personal flavor thing.


Last edited by Petrus on Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:58 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:08 pm

Petrus wrote:




Also, raidguru does indeed appear to be better than bosskillers.


I must agree, couple it with watching Nihilum movies and such, and your about as good to go as you can get without in game exp.
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PostSubject: Re: [ACCEPTED] Rishana-Prot paladin   Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:55 pm

Needs less quoting of the previous post. If we are unable to see direct correlations in this discussion we are fail.

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