"Music and life"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

Found it a kind of interesting analogy.

Yet another reason to scorn religion (as if I needed another one).

There was one brief analogy to Religion. What do you mean?

Religion, at least that I have been a part of, advocates that every thing you do on earth should be to prepare for eternity in heaven, right? Whats a couple of years compared to eternity? It could be said that it is the same "here kitty kitty" gray bag of nothing depicted in the clip.

I am definately an enjoy the here and now type o' fella.

It's been suggested to me that as an atheist I should just kill myself right now since there's nothing to hope for. My reply has always been, "no, why don't YOU kill yourself right now?" If your life in heaven is infinitely better and infinitely longer than the shithole universe you're currently inhabiting, why are you hanging around? Oh right. It's a "sin" (whatever that is). Otherwise how is the church going to get 10% of your lifetime earnings?

Seriously, if I knew with certainty that I could go to a heaven (of my choosing hopefully, not sitting in church for eternity), you'd bet your ass I would blow my brains out this instant.

Life isn't all about going to Heaven. We are on Earth to spread the word and enjoy life. Heaven isn't the goal, it's the reward for living a Godly life.

So if there was no heaven you'd still spread the word? I don't understand how Christianity can persist without this promise. Either:

A) You convert and get to go to heaven or
B) You don't and you go to hell.

In the case of A, you're joining to gain a reward and in the case of B, you're joining to avoid punishment. Either way, the tenants of the religion aren't accepted on their own merits: they're accepted for purely selfish (and understandably human) reasons.

Shel, I know you and Xeos view the bible as the inspired word of your god, but can you say that you believe it without any regard for what you might gain or lose if it IS true? Yes, spreading the word is your assigned duty on earth, but for you it IS a journey. Because you view it that way, it trivializes anything you might experience here.

What do I have to lose if I'm wrong?

Nothing

Freedom of thought? Peace of mind?

Galt wrote:

Freedom of thought? Peace of mind?

I don't have those already?

Ah Pascal's Wager...

That argument only holds water if the two possibilities have equal probability. The fact that there are only two choices (god exists, or he doesn't) does not automatically assign a 50/50 chance of him existing. Observation of the natural world *can* explain our presence. No observation has yet suggested that there's a creator in charge.

Not just that, but how do you will yourself to believe something based on a bet? Belief is accepting that a claim is true based on the evidence for it. How do you accept that a claim is true without evaluating the evidence for it?

Shelarahn wrote:

Galt wrote:

Freedom of thought? Peace of mind?

I don't have those already?

If you don't know, consult your pastor he will tell you whether or not you do.

grak wrote:

Ah Pascal's Wager...

That argument only holds water if the two possibilities have equal probability. The fact that there are only two choices (god exists, or he doesn't) does not automatically assign a 50/50 chance of him existing. Observation of the natural world *can* explain our presence. No observation has yet suggested that there's a creator in charge.

Not just that, but how do you will yourself to believe something based on a bet? Belief is accepting that a claim is true based on the evidence for it. How do you accept that a claim is true without evaluating the evidence for it?

Because I feel the presence of God? It's just faith

Shelarahn wrote:

Because I feel the presence of God? It's just faith

Now you see children, drugs are baaad, Mmmkay?

/tease

Fair enough. That doesn't affect the probability of him existing though because your claim is unverifiable.

If you base your claims on faith, obviously I can't touch you. But I don't accept the claim and so I reject the principles associated with your god. As long as that's the case, I'll fight to keep your (or anyone else's) religious laws out of my secular government. Nothing personal: I'm a big fan of the Establishment Clause.

How do you experience the presence of god anyway? Not being sarcastic, I really do want to know your thoughts on this.

Dimidréas wrote:

Shelarahn wrote:

Because I feel the presence of God? It's just faith

Now you see children, drugs are baaad, Mmmkay?

/tease

I'd be mad if all your posts didn't come with jiggly tits

grak wrote:

Fair enough. That doesn't affect the probability of him existing though because your claim is unverifiable.

If you base your claims on faith, obviously I can't touch you. But I don't accept the claim and so I reject the principles associated with your god. As long as that's the case, I'll fight to keep your (or anyone else's) religious laws out of my secular government. Nothing personal: I'm a big fan of the Establishment Clause.

How do you experience the presence of god anyway? Not being sarcastic, I really do want to know your thoughts on this.

Well I mean spiritual matters are hard to describe, especially via text. I guess the best description would be just an overwhelming sense of hope and security, but like I said, it's hard to really explain.

And that's fine if you want to keep my religion out of your government, but I believe that America was founded by God fearing men that wanted the will of God to be done.

Shelarahn wrote:

Dimidréas wrote:

Shelarahn wrote:

Because I feel the presence of God? It's just faith

Now you see children, drugs are baaad, Mmmkay?

/tease

I'd be mad if all your posts didn't come with jiggly tits

And thus my love for you all is expressed, understood and welcomed.

>^,^<

Quote :

...but I believe that America was founded by God fearing men that wanted the will of God to be done.

If that was really the case, don't you think they'd have written that into the Constitution? The Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 expressly confirms that the United States is not a Christian nation:

Quote :

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

While you are free to believe that god exists, the evidence shows unambiguously that your belief that the founding fathers wanted a Christian nation is false.

look at it this way

I would rather believe in something and find out later that there was nothing ever there, then choose not to believe in anything and find out there was something the entire time.

If that's the thought process you go through, how can you say you actually believe it? It's a fundamental problem with Pascal's Wager.

I think it would be awesome if Jenna Jameson lived in my closet. How can I justify believing that unless I open my closet and check?

Rishana wrote:

look at it this way

I would rather believe in something and find out later that there was nothing ever there, then choose not to believe in anything and find out there was something the entire time.

I try to live my life as a good person. I try to be fair, honest and caring to those around me. To me, in life, this is what matters most, above and beyond all things.
If I am to spend an eternity in hell simply for having my own thoughts and views that are not of the same mind as those which were written by other men many years ago so be it, as I would not want to be a part of something that would deny me my freedom of will.

If there is a god he will see that I truly did strive to live my life as a good person and will be happy that I did such and welcome me with open arms. Any god who wouldn't is no god of mine and a poor excuse for a god afaic.

(from digg today)



OMG ATHEISTS CAUSE CANCER

Rishana wrote:

look at it this way

I would rather believe in something and find out later that there was nothing ever there, then choose not to believe in anything and find out there was something the entire time.

Religions:
Christians 33.32% (of which Roman Catholics 16.99%, Protestants 5.78%, Orthodox 3.53%, Anglicans 1.25%), Muslims 21.01%, Hindus 13.26%, Buddhists 5.84%, Sikhs 0.35%, Jews 0.23%, Baha'is 0.12%, other religions 11.78%, non-religious 11.77%, atheists 2.32% (2007 est.)

Even if you assume 100% probability of a "supreme being" how do you know you cho(o)se the correct one? By your thinking you should believe in all of them, just in case when you get there it's not the one you thought it was.