HomePortalFAQSearchRegisterMemberlistUsergroupsLog in

Share | 
 

 @ Death Penalty

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
grak

avatar

Posts : 389
Join date : 2008-10-07
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

PostSubject: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:43 am

@ srs face conversation last week...

Average cost of capital murder trial seeking death penalty: $3M
Average cost of capital murder trial not seeking death penalty: $900K

Average cost of life prison term: $1.5M

Money saved by not seeking capital punishment: $3000K-$900K-$1500K = $600K

Maybe Z can confirm my numbers, but as far as I can tell, state sanctioned revenge killing is expensive.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Vaslant

avatar

Posts : 558
Join date : 2008-08-01
Age : 32
Location : H-TOOWWWN!

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:57 am

grak wrote:
@ srs face conversation last week...

Average cost of capital murder trial seeking death penalty: $3M
Average cost of capital murder trial not seeking death penalty: $900K

Average cost of life prison term: $1.5M

Money saved by not seeking capital punishment: $3000K-$900K-$1500K = $600K

Maybe Z can confirm my numbers, but as far as I can tell, state sanctioned revenge killing is expensive.
Is this strictly a numbers topic, or would you be willing to take into account the moral debate as well?

Also, elaborate on "life prison term;" do you mean an indeterminate or determinate life sentence? Is this including or excluding a life sentence given in a federal court, which has no chance for parole unless pardoned or reprieved by the President?

If released on parole after 15, 25 or more years served, the cost of the prison term would go down, making it even more cost-effective, but what if they killed again? Would the money being saved justify the potential for said crimial to kill again?

NOTE: If parole is not being taken into account and all convictions resulted in full life-terms served, disregard this post. Razz

~ Sean
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://damagedone.forumotion.com/
grak

avatar

Posts : 389
Join date : 2008-10-07
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:16 am

Quote :
Is this strictly a numbers topic, or would you be willing to take into account the moral debate as well?

Also, elaborate on "life prison term;" do you mean an indeterminate or determinate life sentence? Is this including or excluding a life sentence given in a federal court, which has no chance for parole unless pardoned or reprieved by the President?

If released on parole after 15, 25 or more years served, the cost of the prison term would go down, making it even more cost-effective, but what if they killed again? Would the money being saved justify the potential for said crimial to kill again?

NOTE: If parole is not being taken into account and all convictions resulted in full life-terms served, disregard this post. Razz

The moral debate is separate (although I can't see how it's anything but state-sponsored honor killing).

Life prison term refers to a life term served "in full". That is, the prisoner dies in prison.

Murder recidivism is about 4%. That would result in an average additional court cost of $900K*4%=$36,000/offender when averaged over the prison population. Still far below the savings of not seeking death penalty. Given this low rate of recidivism, I think allowing the possibility of parole is still justified.

www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivism/Adult_Recidivism_CY04.pdf (see figure 6)

Edit: just noticed that was only for washington state. National average is more like 1%.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/rpr94pr.htm (4th paragraph)
Back to top Go down
View user profile
BaronVardus

avatar

Posts : 89
Join date : 2008-09-24
Age : 30
Location : Dallastown, PA

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:46 pm

The smarter and cheaper thing to do would be, send him to prison for 20-50 years, then pay an inmate in cigarettes to kill the guy.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Vaslant

avatar

Posts : 558
Join date : 2008-08-01
Age : 32
Location : H-TOOWWWN!

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:51 pm

BaronVardus wrote:
The smarter and cheaper thing to do would be, send him to prison for 20-50 years, then pay an inmate in cigarettes to kill the guy.
True. All morals aside, this might be the optimal solution. Albeit, it might still be considered state-sponsored by Grakk, because the state is actually setting up the murder, but it is about 99.995% cheaper. $30 < $600k.

The variables would include which brand, cheap or premium, and whether or not the in-mate would be punished for actually going through with it and the impact that would have on the state/federal prison system. Good idea, Vardus.

~ Sean
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://damagedone.forumotion.com/
BaronVardus

avatar

Posts : 89
Join date : 2008-09-24
Age : 30
Location : Dallastown, PA

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:01 pm

Vaslant wrote:

The variables would include which brand, cheap or premium, and whether or not the in-mate would be punished for actually going through with it and the impact that would have on the state/federal prison system. Good idea, Vardus.

~ Sean

Newports, and the said in-mate would get an hour in solitary confinement, as to make it look like he is being punished.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
grak

avatar

Posts : 389
Join date : 2008-10-07
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:12 pm

You're confusing the cost of execution with the cost of the legal process. Yes, shooting someone is cheap. Determining whether they deserve to be shot is not, which is the whole point.

If you're guilty, you get punished. Nobody is arguing that. The moral argument is about what to do once someone is determined to be guilty. The financial argument is "is it even a good expenditure of resources to get to that point?" The numbers say "no."
Back to top Go down
View user profile
- Z -

avatar

Posts : 2012
Join date : 2007-12-09
Location : Surrounded by primitive screwheads

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:32 pm

grak wrote:
@ srs face conversation last week...

Average cost of capital murder trial seeking death penalty: $3M
Average cost of capital murder trial not seeking death penalty: $900K

Average cost of life prison term: $1.5M

Money saved by not seeking capital punishment: $3000K-$900K-$1500K = $600K

Maybe Z can confirm my numbers, but as far as I can tell, state sanctioned revenge killing is expensive.


Ugh. Ironically enough we have been discussing the monetary aspect of our courts and legal system for the last week and a half (feels like years). The reality is, as I'm sure you've guessed, a thousand-fold more complicated than the numbers you've put up there.

In short:

The average cost of a capital murder trial seeking the death penalty is higher (but not more than thrice) than a trial that is not. I believe the actual average numbers (for the United States, as of 2005) are something like $1.2M and $800K (death penalty seeking and not, respectively). Again, this pertains to the trial only.

Now is where it gets "fun"/suicidally ridiculous. Assuming equal numbers of appeals (which is surprisingly standard, death penalty cases average .9 more appeals than non) and equal financial bankrolling (again, surprisingly close, with death penalty cases edging ahead by a mere 12%) the aggregate cost of trial in the courts comes out to be around: ~ $1.8M and ~ $1.1M (fudging the numbers a bit for simplicity).

But we're not done. No, not even close. This is the part that most statisticians in favor of abolishing capital punishment skim over. The cost of a life prison term is, as Grakk said, approximately $1.5M (again, bit of fudging). However, there are some things to keep in mind. We have a five tiered prison system (six if you count Marion, but let's not even go there). Of those, only the level 5 security prisons are "capable" (meaning legally permissible) of housing death row inmates.

The average "lifer" is transferred once every three years during his first decade in prison, and twice more during the remainder of his life. He can be, depending on his level of violence and typology of behavior, placed in a level 3, 4, or 5 prison. The average death row inmate is transferred two times. Once from a local facility where he is held at during trial to his "permanent" residence, and again to a different location, often in the same prison, during the final two weeks leading up to his execution.

... more to come... brb number two

_________________
I don't know why my girlfriend gets so mad at me for always being right, I don't get mad at her for always being wrong.
Zyzzx - 80 Shadow Priest
Back to top Go down
View user profile
- Z -

avatar

Posts : 2012
Join date : 2007-12-09
Location : Surrounded by primitive screwheads

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:22 pm

Fack.

I thought of what I was going to write next and it ended up being like a 3,000 word essay. And yes, this would be the abbreviated version.


tl;dr is costs come out to be much closer to equal, capital punishment is on average 20% more, this is largely due to the fact that average inmate on death row will spend 20-30 years in the penal system. If we expedited the process (which of course has inherent non-monetary ramifications and shortcomings) it would be less expensive.


Bullet points of things to take into consideration:
  • solitary versus open confinement
  • medical and psychological care
  • number of transfers
  • in-house privileges
  • potential for research and interview (this recoups a TON of money for death row inmates as prisons sign contracts with universities, the legality of this is "iffy" at best)
  • the list goes on and on...



Fin.

_________________
I don't know why my girlfriend gets so mad at me for always being right, I don't get mad at her for always being wrong.
Zyzzx - 80 Shadow Priest
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Necis
Officer
Officer
avatar

Posts : 466
Join date : 2007-12-12

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:48 pm

Do you know why it costs so much?
























Because it's worth it!

_________________
Ah, women. They make the highs higher and the lows more frequent. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Reckface

avatar

Posts : 102
Join date : 2008-10-01
Age : 26
Location : Modesto, CA

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:30 pm

So I was looking around....

and came to the conclusion

that 1 .50 Caliber BMG round is ~$7

...

seems to be a cheaper way

than whatever the cost of Grakk's formula is.


DUNNO MAN, MORALS ASIDE, SEEMS TO WORK EASIER THAN THE OTHER BULLSHIT.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
BaronVardus

avatar

Posts : 89
Join date : 2008-09-24
Age : 30
Location : Dallastown, PA

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:40 pm

Reckface wrote:
So I was looking around....

and came to the conclusion

that 1 .50 Caliber BMG round is ~$7

...

seems to be a cheaper way

than whatever the cost of Grakk's formula is.


DUNNO MAN, MORALS ASIDE, SEEMS TO WORK EASIER THAN THE OTHER BULLSHIT.

MY WAYS BETTER GAYWAD, GIVES THE ASSHOLE A FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Tihson

avatar

Posts : 120
Join date : 2008-11-12
Age : 33
Location : Fort Hood, Texas

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:41 pm

Reckface wrote:
So I was looking around....

and came to the conclusion

that 1 .50 Caliber BMG round is ~$7

...

seems to be a cheaper way

than whatever the cost of Grakk's formula is.


DUNNO MAN, MORALS ASIDE, SEEMS TO WORK EASIER THAN THE OTHER BULLSHIT.

A .308 round is ~$1. I just saved the government $6 per inmate in this time of economic turmoil.

I R genious
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.myspace.com/vtown16
grak

avatar

Posts : 389
Join date : 2008-10-07
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:53 pm

If you want to keep going back to arguments that THIS guy might bring up, I guess there's nothing further I have to say.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
- Z -

avatar

Posts : 2012
Join date : 2007-12-09
Location : Surrounded by primitive screwheads

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:13 pm

grak wrote:
If you want to keep going back to arguments that THIS guy might bring up, I guess there's nothing further I have to say.


I officially have a new role model in life.

_________________
I don't know why my girlfriend gets so mad at me for always being right, I don't get mad at her for always being wrong.
Zyzzx - 80 Shadow Priest
Back to top Go down
View user profile
BaronVardus

avatar

Posts : 89
Join date : 2008-09-24
Age : 30
Location : Dallastown, PA

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:17 pm

That guy is going places.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
grak

avatar

Posts : 389
Join date : 2008-10-07
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:35 pm

Z, I have a question.

How is it determined if a an offense is considered a "capital" offense? As I understand it, since the state both defends and prosecutes capital cases, the defendant is guaranteed an appeal as a matter of Constitutional rights whereas in a normal trial, an appeal is only allowed if there is an error in the proceedings and the death penalty cannot be sought.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
- Z -

avatar

Posts : 2012
Join date : 2007-12-09
Location : Surrounded by primitive screwheads

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:31 am

Woah.

Appeals can be sought (and are, hundreds of times a day) in non-capital cases regardless of error or mistrial. Egads, I can't even begin to imagine what things would be like if they weren't. You can appeal... pretty much anything. I know for certain that any index crime is guaranteed a right to appeal, and if you could find a judge willing to go for it, you could technically appeal a traffic accident indictment (you won't, unless by "traffic accident" you meant "involuntary vehicular manslaughter with negligent extenuating circumstances").

That being said, cases where the death penalty has been assessed proceed straight through all the red tape immediately to the court of criminal appeals (meaning you don't have to petition). Note that this is not exclusively reserved for capital cases, but a number of prime classification violent crimes (and I believe some property crimes as well, particularly those involving class action lawsuits and/or cross state lines).

Oh, right. How is it determined if a crime is a "capital" offense? The state that the case is being tried, the level of brutality, malice, or premeditation (as well as qualities such as "mala in se" versus "mala prohibitum"), the strength (or even perceived strength) of the prosecution and defense, the existence of any pertinent exigent circumstances, the level of attention from the media, political, or special interest groups, and whether or not the riding DA's poop that morning was firm or runny.

I could go on, but the bare bones of the matter is, a lot goes in to determining whether a prosecution will seek the death penalty. There is no preexisting rubric or checklist.


Anyway, if you are interested, I could go into further detail.

_________________
I don't know why my girlfriend gets so mad at me for always being right, I don't get mad at her for always being wrong.
Zyzzx - 80 Shadow Priest
Back to top Go down
View user profile
grak

avatar

Posts : 389
Join date : 2008-10-07
Age : 38
Location : Austin, Texas

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:39 am

Interesting. So a captial offense trial automatically gets appealed, right? And you can appeal any other case but it has to be sought? If you appeal do you automatically get it or do they have evidence review boards and stuff that have to actually grant the appeal?

You mentioned that capital murder trials average 0.9 more appeals than non-capital trials. How many appeals (on average) are actually granted in, say, murder cases?

I'm asking because I have this feeling that there is some selection bias going on here: we remember the hits (high profile cases with tons of appeals) and forget the misses (defendant is guilty without question and gets denied his appeal). Yes, some cases get appealed a retarded number of times. But is the abuse of the appeals system as widespread as we're led to believe or is it a smaller % of the cases getting a huge number of appeals and getting more media coverage as a result?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
- Z -

avatar

Posts : 2012
Join date : 2007-12-09
Location : Surrounded by primitive screwheads

PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:44 pm

There are multiple classifications for different crimes (obviously). The most violent crimes with clear victims (defined as "index crimes" by the UCR) are all granted something close to an automatic appeal (usually winding their way through a superior court). Unless the evidence is absolutely absurd and/or the defendant gives up they can continue to appeal, potentially all the way to the supreme court.

For non-index crimes, a judge has to sanction the appeal. In large, high profile cases with widespread ramifications, appeals are almost always granted. When cases are denied an appeal, a defendant (or rather, a defense lawyer) can attempt to circumvent the judge and petition the court of appeals directly. Even if they are denied, they are usually allowed to appeal after the passage of a certain amount of time (months, years, it varies widely) or if they can find any new evidence that was not produced at trial.

When I said that capital cases average 0.9 more appeals than non-capital cases, I made a gross misstatement. I should have said: "capital murder cases average 0.9 more appeals than non-capital murder cases." There aren't too many instances where capital cases don't involve murder (treason comes to mind, but that is handled via a different system), I made the assumption that everyone would know what I meant.

Anyways, I personally would agree that the appeals system is overworked and overused ... But, it is an absolutely crucial component to our legal system and I'll be damned if they decide to clamp down on its use the one time I'm falsely accused of a crime.

_________________
I don't know why my girlfriend gets so mad at me for always being right, I don't get mad at her for always being wrong.
Zyzzx - 80 Shadow Priest
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: @ Death Penalty   

Back to top Go down
 
@ Death Penalty
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Death penalthy Return
» tournament Book
» Sat, Feb 20th, For the Emperor and Sanguinius! Death! DEATH!
» Is death essential to good story writing?
» Looking for Cities of Death Building Kits

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
 :: Public Topics :: Off-Topic-
Jump to: