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Kamma

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PostSubject: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:08 am

For those who would label Senator Obama as a socialist, please reconcile the following,

Quote :
The definition of socialism to which most economists, poli sci types, etc, adhere is that socialism is that form of economic organization in which the state controls the means of production.

While there are some examples of this sort of thing in just about any market-based economy (geez, the government controls the military!), the idea that redistribution per se implies socialism is ridiculous. Hell, the second welfare theorem states that in a perfectly competitive economy (I bet that got the attention of all those neoclassical macro fans!), you can get to any desired (Pareto) efficient allocation with laissez-faire marginal tax policy and the right set of lump-sum...wait for it...redistributions! I guess in current parlance you might call that socialism the Arrow-DeBreu complete-markets way.

-Jonah B. Gelbach

Quote :
Palin: We Shouldn't Experiment With Socialism
Sarah Palin derided Barack Obama's and Joe Biden's tax policies yesterday, telling a rally in New Mexico, "Friends, now is no time to experiment with socialism." Note: Sarah Palin is the governor of a state that practices collective ownership of oil and other natural resources, and equally distributes the state's cut of the revenues to every citizen.
-TPM Media's Eric Kleefeld

Quote :

The one thing that is absolutely not debatable is that a serious laissez-faire type would not want the government making year-to-year operational decisions about Alaska's oil resources. Apparently, though, Governor (Chairwoman?) Palin disagrees.

-Jonah B. Gelbach

The point about the 2nd Welfare Theorem sounds like smoke and mirrors, but really truly, it is one of the pivotal results of the general equilibrium analysis of an ideal free market economy. And keep in mind the definition of pareto optimality:

Quote :
Given a set of alternative allocations of, say, goods or income for a set of individuals, a movement from one allocation to another that can make at least one individual better off without making any other individual worse off is called a Pareto improvement. An allocation is Pareto efficient or Pareto optimal when no further Pareto improvements can be made.
-Wikipedia
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Damacus

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:13 am

i like you more and more kamma

and not in the "I wonder what kinda panties he's wearing today" kinda way
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:15 am

There's a difference between a man who says he wants to "spread the wealth around" and a state sharing it's surplus among its citizens.
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:22 am

How is it different, that is a pretty flaky way of putting it.

I still don't understand why, if he is even a bit of "a socialist", it is such a bad thing. People tend to jump from the title Socialist straight to the most bleak images of commie russia in its worst as if that is the only example of socialism in history.

Listen to some of what Bernie Sanders has to say and see if you still think socialism is some nucular bomb that could be dropped on our way of life.
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:25 am

Galt wrote:
How is it different, that is a pretty flaky way of putting it.

I still don't understand why, if he is even a bit of "a socialist", it is such a bad thing. People tend to jump from the title Socialist straight to the most bleak images of commie russia in its worst as if that is the only example of socialism in history.

Listen to some of what Bernie Sanders has to say and see if you still think socialism is some nucular bomb that could be dropped on our way of life.

I think we have already clearly stated what my main bitch against Socialism is. Bottom line: If I'm still rich, I don't give a fuck who's president.
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Galt

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:28 am

Obamarahn wrote:
I think we have already clearly stated what my main bitch against Socialism is.

What, that he is black?
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:28 am

Obamarahn wrote:
I think we have already clearly stated what my main bitch against Socialism is.
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Damacus

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:29 am

Obamarahn wrote:
Galt wrote:
How is it different, that is a pretty flaky way of putting it.

I still don't understand why, if he is even a bit of "a socialist", it is such a bad thing. People tend to jump from the title Socialist straight to the most bleak images of commie russia in its worst as if that is the only example of socialism in history.

Listen to some of what Bernie Sanders has to say and see if you still think socialism is some nucular bomb that could be dropped on our way of life.

I think we have already clearly stated what my main bitch against Socialism is. Bottom line: If MY PARENTS are still rich, I don't give a fuck who's president.

fix't ^.^
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:33 am

Damacus wrote:
Obamarahn wrote:
Galt wrote:
How is it different, that is a pretty flaky way of putting it.

I still don't understand why, if he is even a bit of "a socialist", it is such a bad thing. People tend to jump from the title Socialist straight to the most bleak images of commie russia in its worst as if that is the only example of socialism in history.

Listen to some of what Bernie Sanders has to say and see if you still think socialism is some nucular bomb that could be dropped on our way of life.

I think we have already clearly stated what my main bitch against Socialism is. Bottom line: If MY PARENTS are still rich, I don't give a fuck who's president.

fix't ^.^

Whatever, same thing. As long as my fat ass is comfy in my big house, I don't give a shit what da gov'ment does
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Kamma

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:39 am

Obamarahn wrote:
There's a difference between a man who says he wants to "spread the wealth around" and a state sharing it's surplus among its citizens.

You didn't read what the 2nd Welfare Theorem says. It says that in an efficient free market economy (with a shit ton of impossible assumptions to even get there -- but we'll ignore that for now), you can choose among the set of all possible Pareto optimal outcomes (those outcomes in which no single person is made worse off) by doing lump sum transfers of wealth between individuals.

That is, a fundamental result of economics states that in a free market, you can slice and dice the pie a bit without making anyone worse off.

IE, it is possible to be "socialist" as you define it (ie "spreading the wealth around") within a free market economy (meaning there is no socialism - remember this is a theoretical result where the "state" doesn't really even exist), AND it is possible to do it in such a way that no one is made worse off (IE you are still rich).

Am I being clear? There's a reason it's called the 2nd fundamental theorem of welfare economics.

(Hint: Change the topic from being about economic efficiency to a philosophical question of liberty, it's your only hope.)
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Shelarahn

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PostSubject: Re: Request   Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:41 am

Kamma wrote:
IE you are still rich

Alright, I'm sold
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